Last updated on November 26, 2023
Podcast 0010; Season 01, Episode 10; May 22, 2018
This week, The Autistic Me Podcast features a discussion about college and dating, as Daniel Sansing and I discuss the challenges autistic young people face trying to establish relationships. We also discuss our experiences. Thankfully, we both found special wives who accept us as we are.
Transcript (lightly edited)
Hello and welcome to The Autistic Me Podcast. This is Christopher Scott. Wyatt and joining me. Today is Daniel Sansing. Our topic is going to be dating and relationships on the autism spectrum.
Scott: Daniel, you have an interesting perspective because you told me that you have always been able to socialize in you’ve had several relationships that were at least what we would consider long-term lasting more than six months.
Daniel: Thanks for having me, C. S. Yes, I think that I’ve always liked people. I don’t know that I always connect really well with people, I do have a lot of awkward exchanges going back a long ways, but… I still have friends from elementary schools. People who accepted, just accepted me the way I was. I just thought it was a little bit different.
It did make it a bit of a challenge to date I would say. With my children growing a little bit older, I do wonder about how that’s going to go for them or for my students who are trying to date and who have talked about it. I’ve had some students with ASDs who have asked me questions like, “How do you know? Who’s the one?” Which I can’t answer very accurately because, apparently, I had several who seemed to be “the one” for a while, before I met Sonja. We’ve been married for 16 years now.
Scott: [00:01:17] When someone comes to you and says, “How did you start to meet people?” my first answer is, “Like everyone else.” I always tell the parents and the autistics I talked to that I met my wife through the same routines that probably 90% of people do, which is at school or at work. In our case it was at school. How do you address the issue when someone asks how to meet other people?
Daniel: I would say it’s a little bit interesting in my case. In middle school and high school I was tall and athletic. I played a lot of sports. I had a lot of interest, I guess, even though I would send out messages to people or not really pick up on what they were getting at if they were trying to flirt with me.
Actually, both of my previous wives that I was married to asked me out, which is I guess unusual a little bit. I asked Sonja out, but I eventually wound up sending an email because we were working at the Writing Center together and every time I was going to ask her somebody walked in and wanted something from her so that went on for about a week and I just said I’m gonna send her an email and ask her out by email. We were both in graduate school.
I was pretty good at getting phone numbers, but not so good at following up later. A lot of the typical dating rules or unwritten rules of dating, I didn’t really follow those and I think I caused a lot of confusion. I feel like I’ve left a wide swath of confusion behind me throughout my life because people are confused by me because I don’t interact in the same ways that they typically expect.
Scott: [00:02:56] You said that you met your current wife of 16 years in a writing center. You might explain to the audience unfamiliar with the university setting. What is a writing center and how social is that environment?
Daniel: It was actually at a “beginning of the year” sort of get-together. We were brand new graduate students. And so there were graduate assistants and folks. A lot of us worked in the Writing Center as well as some classes. We were in the Writing Center environment where students usually come to get help but we hadn’t opened for the season yet. It was just a get-together with graduate students and I believe there were undergraduates there as well. But it was sort of a social gathering and we knew each other for a couple of months in that environment before I asked her out.
Scott: [00:03:44] Your previous relationships… How did you go about the dating rituals that are common in high school and college and adulthood, such as choosing a place to go or how to dress and those things that cause a lot of autistics a fair amount of anxiety?
Daniel: I had a lot of one-time dates. We would go out once. I don’t know why I didn’t ask, or get asked, to go out again, but I just didn’t necessarily click with somebody or whatever. I don’t think I’d say that my experience was that typical of my friends. It was a little bit different for me and sometimes, you know, somebody would ask them to introduce us or whatever, but I wouldn’t say I picked up on social signals very well. I didn’t pick up on flirting very well.
I had a some disappointment at some points and I even think there was some talk that I might be gay because I didn’t follow through with something but I thought I was just being polite and not taking advantage of somebody. Apparently, they were expecting me to take advantage. I initially get that but….
Scott: [00:04:44] And where would you go for a date with someone? Where is an environment in which you can relax and actually connect with an individual?
Daniel: I did all the typical things, I guess. We went to the movies, theater, dinner. All the typical stuff. I think I do fairly well one to one. I’m actually a lot more comfortable. I feel like I know the rules better. I feel like it’s more controlled. I don’t like small groups of people. I’d rather talk to 5,000 people than five because I have trouble following the rules and knowing what I’m supposed to do in those kind of situations. Actually dating was easier for me than going out with a group of friends or having to be in a classroom-size environment in high school.
Scott: [00:05:28] I always find public spaces difficult and I know that many of the autistics I work with have mentioned that as well. I find it interesting you were able to go to things like movies and dinner, which often overwhelm someone with sensory issues. Did you select those carefully? Did you pre-scout where to go and say, “Okay. That’s a quiet restaurant. I can handle that.”
Daniel: A lot of it was just acting. I guess there was an expectation of certain things and I had been just sort of plowing through difficulties since elementary school. I wanted to go on a date, I would meet their expectations. That’s not to say that it always worked out.
Well for me, I think that some of the negative behaviors that I had in response to that — forcing myself to do that. But at the same time, I probably benefited somewhat because I do have a capacity to at least for a period of time overcome whatever it is that I’m having to deal with from a sensory standpoint.
Scott: [00:06:30] In terms of helping the relationship last and become stable, how important do you believe it was for you to disclose the challenges you faced and to be open about your experiences — neurologically, cognitively, with executive function, et cetera — with your partners?
Daniel: I always talked about it and actually got to a point where I would just pretty much say it upfront and, in a way, sometimes I think I was hoping that that would be the end of it — but it wasn’t, necessarily. I just felt like it would skip through a lot of the later misery if I was just up front.
I was up-front with Sonja even though I didn’t have a correct diagnosis at that point. I think we were both at a place in our lives where we knew that there’s no perfect world and people have issues and we have to work them out one way or the other, whoever it is. I think that I would say that it worked better for me to just be up-front and I would continue to do that. I just didn’t find it helpful not to.
Scott: [00:07:30] One of the things that I find is helping my wife and I connect is going through the trauma training and the other things required of foster parents. You basically are exposed to a lot of the current behavioral therapies and cognitive therapies that are (or are not) acceptable to me individually, but they help us understand where we are both coming from as teens and adults. Have you found that having any supports outside of just the two of you has helped you in any way?
Daniel: Oh, yeah, it helps. I even several times have brought Sonja along with me when I went to see the psychiatrist who was treating me for ADHD, for example. I like third-party perspective. I think it’s helpful sometimes; there are things that I would forget when I was going to talk to the doctor that Sonja would remember.
I went through a lot of therapy and my 20s. Like 20 to 30, I was treated for — but not very effectively for — depression. I think that probably every therapist I’ve seen, they kind of just dismissed me at some point because we are kind of talked out. They tell me I’m healthy, I guess in terms of what they can do with therapy. I think I would benefit from some help with sensory integration disorder, but I understand that that’s more of a physical therapist who would helped me with that more so than a counselor.
Scott: [00:08:55] What challenges do your neurodiverse traits bring to a relationship and how have you worked around those?
Daniel: Well, I sometimes don’t want to go out. Sonja will want to go out and I’m just exhausted. Work takes a lot out of me, working with students, working with colleagues. I’m pretty exhausted when I get home. So sometimes she’ll say she wants to go out and I don’t feel like it. She likes to do things. We do, occasionally, go out or get together with another couple or something like that and have dinner, but it’s also tricky because we have Ian. We can’t… we don’t really feel comfortable putting it on the kids or other kids to deal with him. Having a babysitter who’s equipped and trained well enough to take care of him is another issue. That’s difficult.
Also, some of my sensory problems are difficult. Like I can’t stand the sound of her biting down on a fork when she eats. I know that doesn’t really seem like a big deal but the pitch gets to me. And sometimes when she eats certain foods, there’s the sound of them hitting her teeth. I get this physical pain. That’s about the best way I could describe it. That can be difficult and even when I’m trying and I’m grabbing my headphones to put on my headphones… sometimes it seems like that hurts her feelings, too.
So that’s a challenge but I could imagine it would be difficult for anybody with those kinds of issues. But I would say that it’s easier to know what’s going on and that it has gotten better.
Scott: [00:10:28] When a student or one of your children comes to you and says, “I want to meet a boyfriend or a girlfriend” — this happens to me fairly frequently (because of the blog or other things, they know that I’m Neurodiverse) — it’s not uncommon for a young man or a young woman to say, “I want a relationship. What do I do?”
I always feel like I don’t have the answers and I just bluntly say, “I don’t know what you need to do. Let’s talk about what you enjoy doing and maybe there’s some groups or activities you can engage in to meet people.” That’s the best I can offer. How do you approach that problem?
Daniel: Wow. I just tell anybody who asks me that I’m probably the last person on the planet you should ask about dating advice or relationship advice.
But it is a little bit funny. I’ve seen some students the last few years that I got close to —worked with a lot in the writing center or had in class — and they’re really wanting to date and they’re trying to date and I think it’s I think it’s a real challenge. Honestly, neurotypical people know there’s a difference.
I think it’s a little harder with somebody like me to see it, but it doesn’t take that long if you talk to me and for a few hours. I can’t imagine anybody who went out on a date with me and didn’t realize there was something different about me within 20 or 30 minutes.
I think it’s difficult for them [young people] because they don’t want to disclose. So many of the students I see really want to keep it [their Neurodiversity] hidden, and they frequently want to leave high school behind if they had accommodations and those kind of things. But it’s going to be obvious to the neurotypical students.
Scott: [00:11:58] Do you think some of the pressure to find a partner, to be romantically attached, is a social pressure? Or is it a genuine desire for a companion?
Daniel: I think everybody’s a little bit lonely sometimes. That’s true for neurotypical people as much as it’s true for people with autism. I think people want to reach out and connect and they want to have those kinds of bonds and autism is a challenge that makes it even more difficult to do that in many ways. I think if you dig long enough, even neurotypical people and just regular folks have got something — we all got problems.
Scott: [00:12:38] One of the things I found interesting recently was a young man who kept saying that he wanted a partner and when I asked why he said, “All my friends have one, so I need one!” It was more about fitting in and being perceived as normal to have that relationship instead of, “I’m feeling like I would really appreciate and gain something with a relationship.” It was more, “If I had a partner I would be more like everyone else in my dorm.”
Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. I guess it’s “Everybody is supposed to wear shoes and a shirt.” You know, when you go in certain restaurants, it’s sort of a rule. I guess it [dating in college] has been interpreted as a rule. But, a lot of my happiest friends, I think, are still single and have stayed single. I don’t you know. When I talk to students, sometimes I’ll say, “Why don’t you… Why do you think you need to do that?” And they don’t always have an answer.
So I think there is social pressure. I think there’s family pressure. I think there’s the longing to connect, too. But, anybody who’s been in a long-term relationships can tell you pretty fast relationships are not for everybody and if you’re not really, really ready to work at it, you probably are not in a position to do it successfully.
Scott: [00:13:47] One of the things that I have noticed as I approach 50: Most of my friends have had multiple marriages or at least multiple long-term relationships. My wife and I have been together for 27 years with some [many] challenges along the way, certainly. How have you made your relationship last 16 years? And what would you advise other couples with a Neurodiverse or two Neurodiverse partners?
Daniel: They should probably talk to a professional and not to me! That would be my first advice.
I think marriage counseling, and this is true for my neurotypical friends too, I think marriage counseling is — especially if both parties are willing — is a good idea. I’ve had friends go through that and it’s really helped their marriages. I think that people need to be open to that. You shouldn’t assume, “We just can’t work this out ourselves. We just can’t make it.” Well, no, that’s not really the right attitude to take.
We do all kinds of social negotiations and social constructions that we’ve put together all the time. I think that in the 21st Century we’re redefining dating or redefining about what it is to be social. Social media and all these other venues. We’re really redefining a lot of things. To be successful, you just need to stay open-minded and educate yourself as much as you possibly can.
Scott: [00:15:00] And I think it’s useful to remind all young people that it’s not necessarily the case that you’re going to meet a soulmate but that you’re going to meet someone who you can make an ongoing effort with and continue to work on the relationship year after year. It’s not magic.
Daniel: Sure. Sure. No, it’s gonna take a lot of listening and you may not want to be quiet and listen for a while, but the better you listen, probably the better you’re going to choose your words when you do speak. That’s something I had to learn the hard way.
Scott: You’ve been listening to The Autistic Me Podcast with our guest Daniel Sansing.
I’m Christopher Scott Wyatt, and I look forward to our next meeting.
The Autistic Me on Social Media
- Blog: https://www.tameri.com/autisticme/
- Podcast: https://autisticme.libsyn.com/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/autisticme/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/autisticme
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CSWyatt
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/autisticme