Last updated on November 26, 2023
Appearing as a guest on other podcasts and blogs offers me the opportunity to advocate for natural accommodations in our shared spaces. Schools, workplaces, and public common areas should invite every interested individual into the community.
Dr. Shelli Ann Garland hosts A Dash of SaLT: Fresh discussions on Society and Learning Today. We had a wonderful conversation, which I want to share with listeners and readers of The Autistic Me. Head on over and listen to other episodes of A Dash of SaLT, too.
Dr. Shelli Ann Garland hosts
A Dash of SaLT: Fresh discussions on Society and Learning Today
. The podcast presents a global perspective that considers the multifaceted aspects of living and learning in this 21st Century, seasoned with just the right touch of experts in education, and a dash of sociological imagination. ALL podcasts include Accessible TRANSCRIPTS
I often argue that we should not need laws and regulations that mandate basic design accommodations. We should not need special training programs or signs reminding us to be decent people either.
The best way to accommodate everyone is to ask other people some clear questions. “How can I help you succeed? What do you need and how can I provide those accommodations effectively and equitably?” Most students want to learn and participate in classes. Most employees want to contribute to their workplaces.
Don’t rely on checklists and guidelines alone. Compliance with legal requirements isn’t enough, anyway. Ask questions and actively listen. Then, take action based on what people request.
Dash of SaLT with C. S. Wyatt, Part Two
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-rpcfb-11e3b2f
Transcripts
The transcripts that follow are the property of Dr. Shelli Ann Garland. Please give Dr. Garland credit for any of our conversation you might quote elsewhere. I have made some minor edits to the transcription for clarity and accuracy.
NOTE: Editing in Progress! There are errors in the automatic transcription.
A Dash of SaLT: Season 2, Episode 29, Part Two
S2 Ep 29 Part TWO: Is the Wiggle Table Really Necessary? A Frank discussion on inclusion and natural accommodation for neurodiverse learners.
Mon, Mar 28, 2022
Owner: Shelli Ann Garland
SUMMARY KEYWORDS: students , programme , iep , child , parents , education , teachers , disabilities , university , podcast , autism , disability services , embrace , united states , accommodation , state , disabled , questions , access , book
Shelli Ann Garland: Hello, and welcome to A Dash of SaLT. I’m Dr. Shelli Ann and I’m so glad you’re here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you’re here because the subject drew you in welcome. SaLT is an acronym for society in learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let’s get stuck in shall we?
Hi, listeners, this is part two of a two part episode with Canadian scholar and advocate in neurodiversity in autism in education with Dr. Christopher Wyatt. Thanks for joining us in part two, is the wiggle table really necessary a frank discussion on natural inclusion and natural accommodation for neurodiverse learners. That isn’t what you’d expect? In this episode, we pick up the conversation here with educational policies and disability history.
Shelli Ann Garland [1:32]: What are some rights that students or parents of students that with neurodiversity have when it comes to education? How do we empower students and parents of students in that way?
C. S. Wyatt [1:45]: So this is challenging because schools will already have compliance experts they typically have in their, in their student services divisions, they will have the experts who have the checklists. And it is actually very difficult to find many schools that are outside of compliance. Schools don’t want to get sued. The lawsuits are expensive. So what they do is they will have their legal team and their their disability services team, make sure every teacher knows the boxes to check. So the first thing they’ll look at typically speaking is the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. But that only applies to K 12. We also have the Rehab Act. And those were, those were revised in 2005. In 2007, the Higher Education Opportunity Act of 2008 is really just a REIT. It’s a slight revision to the Higher Education Act of 1965. We’re dealing with very antiquated laws, very antiquated laws. So as a parent Much will depend on the age of the child, the setting, sometimes your states are more active than the federal government. So apparent in California has far more rights, far more ability to seek additional screening or additional supports, then apparent in a state like Alabama and Mississippi, Tennessee, there are deep regional differences in the state laws in the state regulations. So the bare minimum that we have in the United States, and it’s it’s similar in other countries, the bare minimum we have is a guarantee access to a free and appropriate public education, right, we get that free and appropriate when nobody even knows what appropriate means, right? So it’s the FAAP that free and appropriate public education in the United States is covered by five oh fours in IEP s. They’re things that come up all the time. The IEP is an individualised education plan or education programme. Some states do call it different things here in Texas, we call it an ARD. That’s, that’s part of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. It was revised during the Obama administration. Most recently, so not really that recently. There are 13 specific disabilities listed, and among those are neurodiversity, disabilities, ADHD, learning disabilities, and autism are included so neurodiversity is included. To get an IEP, your life has to be severely impacted by the disability. That’s how the law reads. So to get an IEP, which is an individualised education plan, you have to demonstrate that that child has very special needs that are not met in the classroom without special planning for that student. So the IEP is something you can ask for the school does have to provide it within a certain timeline. And then after they provide their evaluation of whether or not you’re going to get an IEP, you have the right to appeal. So if they say your child does not qualify for an individualised education plan, you can appeal that and get an outside evaluation. You can also always pay for your own evaluation if you have those funds. Increasingly, schools are willing to even pay for the outside evaluation just to avoid legal entanglements. Most districts already budget for the idea that if they deny your IP request, that you will ask for a second opinion. This is, again, very state specific though, in the United States, there is a tendency to get very easy access to second evaluations in California, Minnesota, Oregon, Washington, New York, it is very difficult outside of those handful of states, Minnesota and California are sort of the epitome of how things should be. Even though there are some issues with those states to. A 504 plan is actually covered by the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. And all it says is that your child struggling a little but it’s not so much that we have to truly individualise the plan. So typically, what it says is we’re going to make sure that your child has access to the education and that the classroom is designed in an inclusive manner. It doesn’t require an individualised plan with the teacher reporting back to you on progress or anything like that. A 504 is it’s kind of in between my child can be mainstreamed with no supports and limited supports. The 504 is a lot more difficult to have revised and updated. One thing parents need to know is if you have an IEP or a 504 in one state and you move to another, it’s usually accepted. And it’s presumed because it’s a federal mandate. So if you move from California to Texas, and you had an IEP, you still have an IEP. And the nice thing is this is now increasingly true in other countries, though, not all, if you move in Australia, to say you move from east to west and suddenly you find yourself in a new province, then you will have access under the Federal Rules of Australia. Canada is slowly implementing that most of the EU has not most of the EU, you move to a new province or Canton or whatever that particular nation considers Their unique units. In the British system, if you move to a new NHS district, you may have to get a whole new evaluation. The current way in the NHS can be as long as three years. So for especially for autism, because there’s a shortage of diagnosticians. So when we talk about what rights parents have, and I know we just threw out an alphabet soup of things. What you need to know is if your child is disabled in your paediatrician, or your child therapist or child, psychologist and psychiatrist have said, so, you’re going to get an IEP. If you can document this child has an autism diagnosis, this child has an ADHD diagnosis. This child has a demonstrable physical disability, those 13 disabilities that are covered in the IEP. And you can go to the Department of Education website, just do a search on IEP. And it’ll tell you, you get these special education services prioritised and it needs to happen for the 504. The 504 is meant to prohibit discrimination against being disabled, it doesn’t really give you a lot of extra supports. But if you can just show that your child is struggling to learn in general needs a speech therapist might need some extra help. Most schools do screening, but you have every right to go in and say I don’t think my child’s getting enough supports are more available. All of this abruptly ends in most nations, including the United States. At at secondary after secondary. I hate to say this, but after secondary school in every nation where I have have collaborated with colleagues, you’re really on your own. Universities just don’t care. Now, you could say well wait, ADA applies to universities and the Higher Education Opportunity Act applies to universities. The General Accounting Office says you know, hey, we have a lot of disabled students and The last numbers I saw were between 15 and 20% of students are disabled at our universities. The GAO says we need to do ADA accommodations. But universities are are protected. And parents need to know this. And here’s why. I have worked with autistic students for many years. And as a mentor, student came to me who is doing that science in Minnesota. I will say, you know, obviously, I am not a vet. Professor, I’m not, you know, that’s not my field. It was having difficulty and was told by the programme, you may not be able to continue in veterinary science because she had meltdowns and had anxiety attacks. During the dissection units, and during some of the animal care in the hospitals. Federal Courts have ruled repeatedly, if you are getting a professional certification, it has to be that you can really perform the task. If you’re a hopeful vet who passes out at the sight of blood, the university does have the right to say we’re sorry, your anxiety attacks in the surgery in the in the surgery centre exclude you from completing this degree. In a famous case, there was a nurse who had issues with flashing lights, recognising them, and the nursing student was told if you cannot see the flashing lights on the medical devices, we cannot give you a nursing credential. And he sued and it went to the courts and the courts did say your nursing programme is correct. Most medical equipment emit sirens and has flashing lights. And if you cannot notice those, you’re not a past the practicum you cannot become a nurse. So universities are in a real interesting situation. Internationally, as well as in the United States, they are giving you a credential to perform a task. If you graduate an engineering programme. Let’s think about this. Say you want to be a safety inspector. So you’re getting an engineering and system safety degree. They call you out because they’re wondering if a bridge is about to collapse, you do not get an extra 90 minutes, you do not get extended time. This is not a test. If you are working for NASA, and it is pre launch, you cannot say Excuse me, can I have an extra 90 minutes to complete these math equations? I’m sorry, it’s just and I know that as a disabled person, what I’m saying is something that sometimes gets me in hot water with with my own communities. But the reality is, is I want a nurse who can always be a nurse, I want a vet who can always be a vet. And I want to know that the person inspecting my bridge was able to inspect it in a timely and correct fashion. So disabilities that prevent you from completing a task, a university professor can say, I’m not going to modify my curriculum because it would no longer meet the needs of that profession. Now what the professor can’t say is, say I’m a history professor teaching a Gen Ed course. And you come to me with a disability services request for extra test time. I cannot deny that, you know, if you had an IEP in high school or a 504 plan, and Disability Services says that you have a learning disability, higher education law and in regulation say you are entitled to an appropriate access. So the appropriate access, if you’re not doing something life threatening that’s on a timer, that Professor cannot deny you that extra test time cannot deny you a written version of the syllabus or online access to materials. So what we have to balance is those professors who see themselves as gatekeepers, why teach nursing, you have to be able to do this. So no extra time on a test with the actual mandates and where they fall. And the actual mandate says that you have to have a reasonable accommodation to qualified students. But students aren’t. Schools are not required to provide accommodation that would fundamentally alter the nature of a programme, lower or waive essential academic requirements or result on result in and I love this one, an undue financial burden. So a university can actually say accommodating you will cost too much money.
Shelli Ann Garland [14:35] Interesting.
C. S. Wyatt [14:37]: And parents aren’t aware of this. The other thing that parents forget is FERPA the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act. Another alphabet soup sorry, but FERPA only applies to children. So as a university professor, parents like myself who are really involved in their kids elementary and high school education, when that child goes on to the university and so is, is now 18 and older. I can’t answer your questions, not without a written waiver on file with Disability Services. I cannot answer questions about grades about assignments. I cannot do that legally. Legally I am limited in what access to grades finances discipline records. It is, it doesn’t even let me find out why a student needs extra time. So it is up to the student to decide to tell me what the precise problem is legally. All they have to say is I need extra time and I have to if Disability Services is approved it I have to say yes or no. With a rationale as to why in my course, the answer is yes or no parents can’t intercede. It is between the professor Disability Services and the student. And so parents who get really involved in again, I want to give credit to the United States we are I know it’s hard to believe, but we’re actually doing better than so many places that we consider advanced. K 12, we mandate supports the 504 plan. And then if necessary, the IEP, you get into higher education. You can’t be the advocate for your child anymore, you won’t get to go to IEP meetings, you won’t be involved in the 504 plan. You’re I’m sorry, but your rights terminate your, your child just got out of high school, you’re done. Unless there is court documentation or a file with the university where the where the student has surrendered his or her rights. You’re out of the picture. You’re now you’re now out of it, even though you might be paying it and I’ve had parents tell me that I am paying for this unit. That’s nice. I can’t answer your question or you need to go through Disability Services. So the rights come to a screeching halt. And many students, I will see students who had amazing grades, exceptional standing. But what happened was in high school, they got extra test time extra allowance extensions on papers, they get to the university and they’re taking a degree that’s very hard, very specific. And their professors will deny certain accommodations that they have become dependent on. And they fail out during their sophomore and junior year, where they’ve transitioned from the general education requirements to the major requirements. And because those supports are diminishing, they, they fail. And it is heartbreaking. I have had wonderful, wonderful students with accommodations of every kind would have continued to do well, but they chose degree programmes or majors that the fundamental nature, which is a legal requirement would have been modified to give them the accommodation they wanted. How do you tell someone I’m sorry, but you really, this degree is actually beyond your ability. That is a heartbreaking discussion to have.
Shelli Ann Garland [18:09]: But I think that’s a that’s an issue and a problem sometimes with people of any abilities. You know, sometimes we never know, we say, oh, you know, I was always horrible with maths and fractions and things like that. Not really particularly an issue with blood. But I had originally thought to myself, Oh, maybe I’d like to be a nurse someday. But that would have been something that was I took one before I matriculated in my under degree under undergraduate degree programme. Just for fun. I thought I’d take a nutrition class because I thought Oh, that’ll be you know, fun. And I And of course, you know, the the acronym for it was NURS. And then it was like, I don’t remember the the numbers, whether it was 195 or something, I don’t know. But it was four in the nutrition module. And, you know, I just thought, oh, yeah, this is gonna be great. Now, I worked my bones off, right, and I got a B plus, which really, really actually upset me because it meant that I graduated. After four years when I did matriculate. I graduated with a 3.98 instead of a 4.0. So for me, a bit of a perfectionist I that was something that always hung his still hangs over me and irritates me. But I had no idea that there was so much math involved in, in a nutrition class. And, and so thankfully, you know, I there was no way I would have ever made it through a nursing programme. I just throw my hands up right now and say that, but again, it’s you know, it doesn’t matter what what level or variability that you have of ability. You know, there are some things that are not right for us. And we learned that rather quickly, which I think has something there’s something to be said with being able to allow students to take maybe the first and the second year while they’re doing their Gen Gen Ed’s to figure out what they have an affinity for and what they would think they would like to do rather than put somebody directly into a party programme right from the get go starting in their freshman year. But that’s a whole nother conversation. For another day, I’d say. But yeah, so I get that what you’re saying,
C. S. Wyatt [20:11]: Actually, I think that does fit in because when we talk about what educators can do, right, we have these these disabled students, we have neuro diverse students, we have ethnically diverse students, culturally diverse students, we have all these diversities, and we as teachers are asked to serve them all. Here’s a, here’s a class of, you know, in a day, I might have 180 Different students, and you’re expected to somehow meet the needs of 180 individuals. And how do we do that? And, you know, we have to start with asking students, why are you in this class? Right? And so for 90% of them, the answer gonna be because I was told to, I have to take your class. That’s, especially if you teach general education courses, I have to be here. So then the question becomes why are you at the university? Or why are you in this high school? Or why are you in this Baccalaureate programme? And as teachers, we need that information. I was often told well, that, you know, that’s a silly question to still be asking, Why are they here? I mean, that’s what a cliche? what a what a cliche. Why are you here? Every student’s just going to say, well, because I have to be, and no, we have to go. We have to go deeper than that. And we have to say, so what are your goals? What are your ambitions? What is it that you value? What is important to you in life? How does that fit with this career plan? And I think, when we start digging down and really getting to know, the individuals in our classroom instead of the students as a whole, that gives us the tools we need to embrace the neuro diversity, the physical diversity, the cultural diversity, because as students open up and tell you more, and certainly there are questions you should never ask, you don’t want to pry, you don’t want to get into their backgrounds that they don’t want to discuss. But as you give them those opportunities to discuss those things, then you find that you are accommodating their needs. Because you have developed those relationships. embracing diversity starts by embracing individuals, I wish we would stop saying, How are we going to embrace the autistic students? No, please stop that. How do we embrace students? How do we embrace individuals? Can we please get again, this goes back to the label being the problem. So how do we embrace those students? And how do we help them and prepare them for these difficult choices is by being honest, one thing we’re not as teachers and parents is we’re not always honest, we we say things in the United States that aren’t necessarily said everywhere, where anyone can grow up to be president. Anyone can be whatever they dream of being. No, though, sorry. I dream of many things, but I’m not going to be them. So we need to take a different approach and say, what, what are your values? What do you really love doing? And how can we what is the best way you can maximise what you love with the skills and abilities you have and are willing to improve? And we need to start having that discussion not just with the Autistics and those with other neurodiverse needs, like ADHD or learning disabilities like dyslexia. We need to get into those discussions with every student. And we need to be honest, and I think honesty is really the key there to embracing those differences.
Shelli Ann Garland [23:59]: Absolutely. Christopher, we’re coming to the end of our conversation together. It’s this is just so fascinating. And I feel like we could probably talk about these things, you know, for many more hours, um, but I’m just wondering, first, I have two final questions for you. And the first one is do you have any book recommendations or website links or contact information that you’d like to share with listeners? I know that you shared a lot of really great resources for policies you talked about. The neuro the neuro types with, I think, Stephen Silverman, if I’m
C. S. Wyatt: Steve Silberman, SILB…
Shelli Ann Garland [24:38]: Oh Silberman. Okay. And so I you know, I did jot down a couple of those because I like to put them you know, in the descriptions for for listeners as well. But do you have anything more that you’d like to share with us? That would be great resources.
C. S. Wyatt: So I think if you’re interested specifically in neurodiversity, neuro tribes by Steve Silberman is a History of autism and where it comes from the works of Dr. Grinker are very good. His first book on autism is unstrained minds. And his current book is nobodies normal. They are very good studies of how we define normal and what is or isn’t normal and, and how this comes about as a cultural construction. I think that that is a valuable insight for teachers. I think they need that. In terms of education, I think the the best resources are the students in your class. I wish we would stop looking to experts who don’t come from those communities. I think that it’s too easy to say I, someone I have met and had on the podcast Temple Grandin is a wonderful person. And she’s she’s just a wonderful professor. But reading a book by Temple Grandin, or Stephen Shore, or Dawn Prince-Hughes, reading books, by Autistics about their their experiences are only going to tell you about one individual. And I think that we again, we don’t want to get too caught up in Oh, this is what autism is, or this is what neurodiversity is or this is what life is like for someone with MS or cerebral palsy or whatever it is deaf and blind community books. Those memoirs are powerful and useful. But I think beyond just a little bit of understanding of how these labels have emerged, the thing to do is to sit down with with your students and with the parents of those students, if you want to engage with the autism community, the neurodiverse community. Groups like ASAN, the autism Self Advocacy Network, they do have websites where they give their opinions. Again, everyone’s gonna have a different opinion, though, even even from within those movements. I certainly don’t always agree with the some of the autism self advocates. The the challenge for teachers that I keep presenting in for employers is we need to just take people at their word, and then honour what they tell us about their needs. One reason I don’t like the ADA IDEA, 504, IEP approach to life, is, I should be able to just go to an employer and say, I need a quieter workplace, this open office plan isn’t working for me. And the employer says, Hey, you’re a great employee. Let’s see what we can do to get you that quiet space. Without asking, Are you disabled? Can you fill out these 20 forms? You know, can you justify this to our HR department? As a student? Why do I need a Disability Services Department? We shouldn’t need it. And I know that’s not nice to say, but we shouldn’t need disability service experts. Every teacher should just say, you know, this student of mine is having difficulty reading, I need to, I need to refer that person to the reading specialist to see if there’s a learning disability involved. There shouldn’t be a need for all these forums, there shouldn’t be Hearings and Appeals and second opinions. We need to get to a point where the teacher just says I noticed that your reading slowly is there somewhere in the class you’d rather sit and if the grade improves, then you know you accommodated the student. If the student says May I stretch I’m really having a hard time sitting still. I don’t need to have a checklist that says that that child has ADHD PTSD you know, whatever. Just fine you would like to stretch Hey, that sounds good to me. Let’s all stretch for five minutes. Susan Cain’s book Quiet. Quiet, right just quiet is really good on the the bias that education and business have against introversion and introverted characteristics traits which are often comorbid with with Autistics. We have this cult of the extrovert, this cult of collaborative learning in the United States and in our teaching. When I go in and I tell teachers, your room is too stimulating. Like no, no, no, I was told it needs to have all these labels and 200 different colours and you know everything. It’s basically a whirlwind of sensory overload. And, you know, my poor daughter breaks down and starts screaming. And I’m trying to tell teachers, you know, that might be what they’re saying about intellectual stimulation but for you 30,000 years humans did not have multicoloured rooms with everything labelled and all these toys and all this input. What’s what matters? Is your relationship with the student? Yes, okay, you have a pretty bulletin board. But now your student with ADHD can’t stop staring at the 400 pieces of that bulletin board and counting them or the student with OCD is driven crazy by how you have the room arranged. We knew we needed to do a lot better of saying yes, there were these roles we were given as educators bringing it now I’m going to listen to me students and some of those rules will help me and some of them won’t. And as I said, my big gripe was the slap thing which is active listening. You know, this this idea you have to make eye contact, you have to sit a particular way. So you know, slant is the setup, lean forward, ask questions, nod and smile, track speakers, eyes and ears and the slant posters are everywhere across America that I’ve been. And it’s so annoying because I say well, okay, so now you have a student who isn’t comfortable smiling or is an introvert doesn’t want to nod with the speaker. You have an autistic student who doesn’t want to make eye contact. They’re penalising students who are doodling saying, well, they’re doodling they’re not listening. Really, I doodle all the time and I have a I can play back what you said like a like an audio tape. So please stop telling me what I’m doing is wrong. So what happens is teachers learn all these markers, as I said, all these theories of classroom management instead of pedagogy of teaching, and individualising education, if education was individualised from the beginning, then we would need IEP made definition, which is an individualised education programme, every student would have one. And that’s my parting thought is, in some ways, throw the throw so much of our literature in education out the door. Yeah, I remember. So many of my colleagues turned to Paulo free, airy Pedagogy of the Oppressed. And one of the interesting things is when he was put in charge of education, he failed miserably. And he later said, The problem is, is I assumed there was a single right model. But people don’t know that they’re like, I’m going to embrace his model. And he later said models are Yeah, that model is not reality. Reality is every community is going to be different. Every individual is going to be different. I was wrong. No, no. And yet, Yogi, we embrace these things with the best of intentions. But the real intention is nothing replacing that individual. That individual relationship, that rep parte that you have with the student and the parent. So I was reading a study out of California out of Salinas, California, where they found that critical race theory, as they were embracing ethnic studies in their schools, because most of their students are non native speakers of English. They are largely immigrants from Central and South America. So their thought was that ethnic studies would really help students get in touch with themselves, get good grades and find motivation. But what was happening was the ethnic studies was being presented in the academic context with the academic jargon and the academic idealism. In the students who were already non native speakers were being taught about inclusivity and intersectionality. And there were no cognates in Spanish for these words, and so they were even more lost. And it turned out that a significant portion of the students who were supposed to be helped by ethnic studies, that was the class they were failing. Too often we bring our jargon like pedagogy. We bring our jargon into the classroom when we with the best of intentions, I think, I don’t have any doubt on critical race theory as a legal formula. None at all. I certainly have talked about it in my business and economics courses. But I’m not going to use the same terms and language with a parent or a child. We need to de jargon eyes ourselves, D academia ourselves. We need to stop all this. Like I said this this alphabet soup of ADA IDEA OSEP office of special education programmes HTO A, the Higher Education Act. We need to drop all of that and just talk to parents and students as peers we need to stop trying to sound like physicians or something. Yeah. You know, And I think that would do so much to improve our relationships with parents and students as if we just talked to them in their words. Yeah. And listened to them.
Shelli Ann Garland [35:10]: Christopher, I’m going to actually ask this question, but I think that you, you really actually rolled into it. So any final words of wisdom or advice for our listeners?
C. S. Wyatt [35:19]: For the teachers out there, understand that you serve the students, first and foremost, above any regulation, any mandate, anything your administrators even say, and sometimes it is your responsibility to go to administrators at any level, k 12, University, vocational education doesn’t matter. Sometimes it’s your responsibility to go and say, I’m going to do the following because it helps this student. And I know I don’t have to, but I think it will help this student and help my class. We have gone into teaching gone into education to be advocates, I think people go into teaching to be voices for change. But too often what we do is we catch ourselves following the checklist, the administration and worrying very much about our annual evaluations, and are we going to get our tenure, our clear credentials? Are we going to move up to department chair, whatever your professional goals are? When goal 123, whatever how many students you have, those are your goals, huh? Yeah, I may have 150 goals. Not 151 can be whether or not my department is happy. I do hope that people take the time to go out there and search not only for my blog, and podcast, but all the voices in all these different communities, I think the best thing that we can do is become active learners ourselves, instead of keep telling our students to be learners, I think we need to demonstrate that we’re willing to learn to so when I have a student from a different culture, a different background, a different set of needs than mine, I go out and try to learn about it knowing I’ll never be the expert that that student is. But with today’s world, I can tune into a podcast and learn about another set of beliefs, I can learn about another set of experiences. This is just a great time in terms of the knowledge that’s out there, go out and pursue it. Being an autistic parents with autistic children, the pandemic, especially these last two months, has thrown off my schedule. And I think that for many families with special needs students, this is the case it affected everything I was doing, including the podcast and the blogs, I’ve gone from weekly to twice a year, twice a month. Parents of all students need to learn patience, and I prioritise my daughter’s if the podcast or the blog doesn’t get updated, because my children have a need of my time. Whether even my students, if my students need my time, then the podcast and blog can wait. And I think that’s that goes back to what I’m saying is my my words of wisdom, it’s prioritise what counts. And for me, it’s my children. And when I’m teaching, it’s my students. And that comes before the blog, the podcast, my projects, my research, they always come first.
Shelli Ann Garland [38:33]: It’s a beautiful way to sum sum things up. Yes, the title of your podcast is the autistic me. And the title of your website is The Autistic me. Thank you so much for being my honored guest. On the podcast, you have been an absolute wealth of knowledge. And it’s been a really fascinating discussion. So thank you so much, Christopher.
C. S. Wyatt: Thank you for this opportunity.
Shelli Ann Garland: I hope that you’ve enjoyed this discussion on A Dash of SaLT, a space where you’ll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Seasoned with just the right touch of experts in education and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don’t forget to subscribe to A Dash of SaLT on PodBean so that you don’t miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we’ll chat again soon.